First of all, to answer Amy's suggestion,  "Maybe they should open their minds to non-Jewish mates,"  the attendees clearly were there because they wanted to find a Jewish mate.  I won't go into the whole "Why marry Jewish" spiel, since you and others have heard it all before, and it's none of my business whom you date or marry.

Now to Shmuely "Lookit me I'm a celebrity rabbi" Boteach.  No question, he makes a few common-sense points:  Don't blame others for your singleness.  Avoid meaningless sex (unless, I might add, that's all you want in which case go for it, use condoms, etc.).  Avoid men/women who only want sex (unless etc. etc.).  Introduce other single friends to each other (a great mitzvah, by the way).

But his other advice?  Date only when you feel like you need a partner?  Well, Amy's already explained why that's stupid.  Commit first, fall in love later?  That's fine if you're a haredi just out of yeshivah high school, or Tevye the dairyman, but for those of us who live in the 21st century...nnnno.  Why should I commit to someone when I have no idea how I feel about her?  Let your guard down early, talking about things that "pain" you on dates?  No, no, a thousand times no!  Any dating expert--heck, even your mother--will tell you that complaining during your first few dates is the worst possible thing you can do.  It makes you sound like a perpetually negative person who finds fault with everything and everyone.

Boteach strikes me as someone who has little idea how modern-day dating, as opposed to frum matchmaking, actually works.

The entire point of "dating Jewish" is because a person wants to be Jewish. Marriage is a commitment to a journey for life and requires that both people intend to go to the same destination. While it is not true that 100% of those "date nonJewish" will wind up marrying their nonJewish partner, 100% of those who "marry out" will have dated nonJewish.

Similarly, while you may not be ready to make a commitment to anyone at this time, eventually you will want to settle down and start the next link in your family chain. When you do, then you will appreciate what you cannot see at the moment.

Dating someone who shares your core values and is part of your mishpacha enhances the probability that you will find the right person.

Exactly which core values are you talking about here?  Sure, if you're committed to lighting candles every Friday night, it helps to marry someone for whom that's also a priority.  But if you're a feminist Reconstructionist JewBu who wants to light candles every Friday night, and you marry a messianic Lubuvitcher who wants to light candles every Friday night, chances are the relationship isn't going to last very long, even if you make some lovely Shabbats along the way. 

In other words, show me your concept of Judaism's core values, and I'll show you six Jews who believe otherwise.  

There was a piece exactly like this on Nerve a couple of years ago - you can probably still find it - written by a twenty something kid. She kvetched about Jewish singles mixers, called people J.A.P.s, oozed contempt for Jews who prefer to date other Jews, and stirred up every stereotype in the book.

How "hip".

"Exactly which core values are you talking about here...show me your concept of Judaism's core values, and I'll show you six Jews who believe otherwise."

Yeah, Anonymous. What do you know about that basic "something" that people get when they date someone of a similar culture or background?

This is an "edgy" publication, not the Jewish Week.

Get with the program.

Oooh...the scare quotes again, and two times in rapid succession! In the hands of anti-hipster militants, those things are like a +5 bastard sword against leather armor. Absolutely deadly, and they never miss.

Surely, though, hip and edgy are not the only words that should be rendered with scare quotes every time they're written. Mix it up a bit. Play to your strengths. Use them on at least one word per sentence.

And don't get me started on the growing practice of forming every plural with an apostrophe-s.  Apostrophes are for possessives and contractions, not plurals.

"In the hands of anti-hipster militants, those things are like a +5 bastard sword against leather armor. Absolutely deadly, and they never miss."

I'm sorry, but I really don't know what you're talking about.

I'm not a militant "anti-hipster" or whatever you call it. I don't even know what a Jewish "hipster" is, really. I recently, for the first time, went to an event called Jewltide that I was later told was a "hipster" event. I just thought it was a lot of young Jews listening to some bad rock music sung by other Jews. And many of the people I spoke to who were there felt the same way.

So, that's the only experience I've had with any "hipster" scene.

I have, however, in the last couple of years, read some writing like this in Time Out New York and on Nerve. It obviously aims to be individualistic and a bit jarring.

I really wasn't aware that describing it as "edgy" or "hip" has become a cliche of "militant anti-hipsters".

But then again, its themes and snark have become cliches, haven't they?

If feeling that way makes me a "militant anti-hipster" in your eyes, I'm fine with it.

is that it means absolutely nothing, and so adds nothing to the conversation.  "It aims to be individualistic and a bit jarring" (I'm literally quoting here, not ironic-distance-quoting) at least begins to hint at why you don't like this sort of thing.  Otherwise, you're just correctly identifying the category that Jewcy fits into, kind of like calling the Weekly Standard conservative, or Salon liberal, or Vogue fashion-obsessed.  Yes, we're all relatively young and skeptical -- thanks for pointing that out and tagging it with the appropriate adjective.  

I believe that's what my esteemed colleague Mr. Kurtzman was trying to say.  

"is that it means absolutely nothing, and so adds nothing to the conversation"

Well, it must mean something, because your esteemed colleague, Dr. Joey Kurtzman, wrote a blog entry on this site ranting about it.

"It aims to be individualistic and a bit jarring"...at least begins to hint at why you don't like this sort of thing."

I wasn't hinting at anything. I already said that almost the exact same article, with the same contemptuous tone, appeared on Nerve two years ago.

And no, I don't like it when people express contempt at Jews who like to date Jews exclusively.

"Edgy" stuff, hipsta.

I'd like to thank and compliment you both for holding me in the appropriately high level of esteem.

I think my main concern was just to use a Dungeons & Dragons simile. That was what occurred to me first, and what I got the most pleasure out of.

But...though I agree with the thrust of Izzy's worthy paraphrase, I have to qualify it a bit: I do think scare quotes mean something. They mean the same thing in the hands of a sociologist who puts them around race, an endocrinologist who puts them around juvenile diabetes, or an anti-hipster jihadi who puts them around edgy--they mean "this is a shoddy, vulgar term, and it is beneath me, and though I must sometimes use it when in the company of people not so elevated as myself, I will do so with a sneer."

That's a lot of information to pack into four petite little vertical strokes, but it doesn't illuminate much other than the high regard in which the speaker holds himself relative to people who use the word without scare quotes. But it's that self-admiring posture, unfortunately, that seems to be all that's on offer from the anti-hipster mujahideen. Their manifesto is one big scare quote.

I'd like to hear more, that's all! So you dislike writing that is "individualistic." What kind of writing do you prefer? Communitarian? Anarcho-syndicalist? And which is the obsolescent and so-five-years-ago theme you dislike here? The difficulty people have in finding a beshert? The tension between universalism and Jewish particularism?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I appreciate your engaging here, I'm just saying, okay, I get it, I get the scare quotes. Then what?

Joey:

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I'm not sure why you are using the term anti-hipster jihadi, etc. It's really extreme, being that jihadis behead people and dispatch suicide bombers. As I said before, I've only been to one "hipster" event, and I didn't think of killing anybody. I simply left after two hours because I wasn't into the music.

I know nothing about the so-called hipster scene, and I don't have strong feelings about it right now, and probably never will. As far as I'm concerned, it it's a bunch of my Jewish brothers and sisters getting together to party, talk politics, make love, listen to music, whatever, I'm all for it.

Regarding your response about scare quotes, etc.: sorry to sound superior. It's just a reaction to the above article, and the snarkiness by Izzy.

First of all, the article has been done. It was on Nerve two years ago. With the same undercurrent of contempt and the same stereotypes about the Jewish singles scene. And the same stereotypes about other Jewish women, calling them J.A.P.s, etc. Honest to God. The writing is hardly edgy or individualistic. That's my point. It's like comedians and cell phone jokes and internet porn cracks. Honestly, I read this article enthusiastically, but was quickly let down. I'm routing for Jewcy to be successful. It’s disappointing when talking about dating, to see a writer dish out clichés.

Now, you guys probably didn't know that virtually the same thing was written about a year ago, so no harm done. But think about it from my perspective. Here's this very young, Jewish writer, who is penning a piece for a magazine, that is getting attention in the press and the blogging world for being edgy, hip, etc. And yet, we get a piece about the Jewish dating scene that offers the same old, stereotypical, my-fellow-Jews-are-so-uncool commentary that I've seen before. Painting Jewish singles looking for other Jewish singles with a broad brush.

Now, if you don't see this the way I do, that's fine. And, if, like Izzy, you want to shovel contempt at a reader who responds and basically says, "There's a certain commonality you feel with a Jewish partner," that's fine as well.

I don't have to like it. And I certainly don't have to come back for more.

As far as the rest of what you said - particularism vs. traditionalism - or whatever, that's all heady stuff that you are probably much more versed in than I am. And I admire that. I just don't think this rant about the Jewish singles scene warrants that type of intellectual discussion, honestly. It's just not that deep or insightful.

Hey, I'm sorry if I came off sounding contemptuous. What's so frustrating about the whole dating-Jewish-vs-dating-non-Jewish debate is that it has, as you've pointed out, been totally done to death by every Jewish publication out there -- and yet it's still going on, and (I believe) still worthy of discussion. In a way, it's a lot like the "Does God exist?" debate from our Harris-Prager comments section. Ultimately, nobody's going to win that fight, but some interesting ideas can still come out of it.

So when I responded to your comment, I really DID want to know what core values you meant. To me, at least, that's how this discussion could move into the realm of the heady, deep, interesting stuff. What is the soul of Judaism? Where does that commonality come from?

"Commit first, fall in love later? That's fine if you're a haredi just out of yeshivah high school, or Tevye the dairyman, but for those of us who live in the 21st century...nnnno. Why should I commit to someone when I have no idea how I feel about her?"

Word, Michael Nehora! Very nicely put.

Not to be a total bitch - but this might be one of the most insipid and uninsightful pieces of "writing" I have read in a long time.

You have completely failed to understand the perspective you are trying to explain.

You really missed the mark here. Perhaps you should take Shmuley's advice about letting down your walls. Stop thinking you walk on water (you're single, right?) and start being open minded to the idea that - GASP! - someone might have a different opinion than you.

I'm a secular Jew with a non-Jewish girlfriend, but I find this article to be pretty sad. The author has some real issues and to me the, yeah I'll say it, self hatred that is exposed is pretty disturbing. If you have such contempt for Jewish peole who have interest in other Jews then why the fuck are you writng for a Jewish website? Even if it is one that seems to have some real disdain for the Jewish community as a whole. And yes, it is a tired, ironic, hipster stance that is just as played out as the Jewish dating that you are trying to dis. Pretty pathetic...

Another thing is there would be outrage if a member of another ethnic group, or minority (which Jews are in my opinion), such as an African-American, wrote with such contempt about members of their group consciously dating other members of their particular ethnicity. Especially on a website dedicated to that particualr group, even if its one like Jewcy that seems to have an ambivalent relationship with the Jewish community at best. Only among Jews is it acceptable to have such openly expressed disgust, disdain, and embarassment about your background. We seem to love it, and mainstream society loves to see us mock ourselves. Look at Seinfeld, Woody Allen, Curb Your Enthusiasm, etc, etc. What is wrong with wanting to date someone like yourself, or to have a family with both parents sahring similar experiences, etc? This is especially true with Jews, who are literally disappearing from the face of the Earth (except for the Orthodox) because of intermarriage, etc. All of this ironic mocking won't mean shit when the author is older and realizes have stupid she sounds. Go write for Vice magazine or something, you're corny.

Is [[http://www.nerve.com/personalessays/levy/aversiontherapy/|this]] the one the previous commentator was referring to?

Thanks to all the scare quotes, I can't decide if that comment about the Jewish Week is intended to be a compliment or an insult. So I have to say, "thank you," and "clearly you have no idea what you're talking about." You know, just to have my bases covered.

I'm pretty sure Amy's mother is a shiksa. This is why intermarriage is so bad. The result is a confused barely Jew who has no idea about the important history of the Jewish people. Hilter would approve of Amy.

Jumpin' Jehovah, what a comment, anon! Ethnic slurring, rhetorical bottom-feeding, off-the-charts ethnocentric hubris, a commitment to racial and cultural purity, all seasoned by a bit of dignified conjecture about the ancestry of a person with whom you disagree. And all packed into four sentences! Who is this noble people from whose stock you arise?

In all seriousness, though, Anon, remember that Jesus (fine, "Rabbi Yeshua, luminary of the Jewish prophetic tradition," have it your way) tells us in the gospels of Matthew and Luke that "by their fruits you shall know them." Think about that! How will the non-Jewish world judge Klal Yisrael based on "the fruit" that is your words? Perhaps harshly. Perhaps, "in the interest of peace" (mi-pene darkhei shalom) between the nations, you should internalize your thoughts, internalize them very, very deeply indeed.

Anyway, I'm reminded that the majority of Jewcy staff is the product of intermarriage. So don't waste your time fretting about the future: the disaster is already upon you. The first mongrel-generation of American Jewry has arrived, and it only gets worse from here. I think it's time to panic.

Because, I mean, I can't say it's actually our plan to marry your children, raise your grandchildren as Unitarians, and send you annual goyishe holiday cards with pictures of the kids digging into their Chrismakkah stockings. But if it happens, well...OOPS!

Well put, Joey;  you might have also mentioned Godwin's Law (or perhaps you covered that with the "rhetorical bottom-feeding" zinger).

People, people, people:  Enough with the "intermarriage is killing us all" comments.  Frankly, they're growing tiresome, and no one here cares.  Maybe Jewcy could set up a Wiki sandbox just for all the "oy yoy yoy, worse than Hitler" comments so the trolls can get it out of their system.  :-)

Personally, if/when I marry, I plan to marry a Jew or someone willing to convert, but I'll tell you straight, I'd rather live in a world where non-Jews want to marry us than one in which they want to kill us.

This is NO kind of logic.  I love how, when Jews want to attack each other about anything, they call on the name of Hitler.  And I HATE HATE HATE chickenshit anonymous posters. If you're going to be a fucking moron, say it loud and proud, or go jack off with your tiny little friends and giggle about how superior you are.

xoL http://jewishyirishy.com

I feel no need to defend myself but I will defend my mother.  She is the most amazing woman in the world.  She was born and raised in Brooklyn in a very religious Jewish home.  In fact, when she wanted to marry my father, her parents were not happy he wasn't Jewish.  But then they met him, learned how wonderful he was and how happy he made my mother, fell in love with him, and could not approve more of their marriage. 

My parents are still happily married.  My mother retained her Jewish identity and passed it on to me.  And my grandparents, who came to New York from Russia, had a more open mind than you, Anon.

Keep your hatefulness in check. 

i find it unusual that continuity/interfaith issues are among one of my primary interests, yet i can't stand to hear the same back and forth bickering everytime i read an article that involves in-marriage vs. intermarriage. i also can't stand when people have to bring up Hitler. his body has long since decomposed. end of story. 

there is nothing wrong with people wanting to date and marry exclusively Jewish. it doesn't make them bigots or closed-minded. this is what's important to them (or to their parents and they have no choice but to listen to them or else). and as for those who find love outside the Jewish community, it doesn't make them traitors (even though some of our more traditional counterparts might think so, but then again these are the same people who find fault in just about anything that doesn't go according to plan). for the majority of Jews who interdate or intermarry, their partner's religion (or lack of) has nothing to do with why they selected them. i didn't choose my boyfriend because he isn't Jewish. i chose him because i felt a connection to him on more levels that i did with any other guy i dated in the past, regardless of whether or not they were Jewish. and the fact that he doesn't have a religious background has actually been a good thing in our relationship. i don't have to worry about him going to church or anything like that. in fact, he comes to Chabad with me and is fairly well-versed in Jewish culture and customs. it's the random things that count, like how he knows not to shake hands with an Orthodox woman or that a mezzuzah can't be hung up outside of a bathroom. some of the Jewish guys i dated were clueless about these things.

the Jewish community needs to find a balance between encouraging in-marriage and welcoming the Jewish partner (and their spouse) if an intermarriage occurs.

when people limit themselves to a tiny percentage of the population for dating/marriage purposes, it can be difficult. when they are insanely selective within this framework (they will only date hot rich Jews), then it gets even more complicated. people go to Singles events with this mentality that they'll find their soulmate, but are sorely shaken when no one talks to them or the only people that try to approach them are the ones they want nothing to do with. if people stopped being so damn picky, they wouldn't have the sad faces that were described in this article and they wouldn't have to subject themselves to one humiliating Singles event after another. but just because two Jews marry, it doesn't mean they're free from any potential problems. any relationship, whether same-faith or interfaith, requires work.