Fri, Jul 25, 2008

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Dov Friedman


halachic pre-marital sex? response to David

David, I must take your long post point by point. It seems to me you have made quite a few
errors both in logic and in your understanding of halacha.

“The fact that most Jews do not honor the law (almost any Jewish law) is
true and this is no excuse to find and seek new standards--unless there is
evidence that a law is unfair, unjust or counter-productive.”

Let’s assume for a moment that the idea running through your post is true --
that pre-marital sex is actually against a strict interpretation of
halacha. Your understanding of when a
law can be superseded is mistaken. It is
not merely in a case of lack of “justice” in the law. You may be familiar with the concept of “G’zera
She’ein Ha’Tzibbur Yachol La’amod Ba” – a decree to which the community is
incapable of living up. Even in an
understanding that deems pre-marital sex against halacha, an honest understand
of the development and extension of halachic principles would show that this is
a later development. Elisheva is
absolutely correct that the tzibbur is having considerable difficulty (or
straight up no success at all) holding themselves to this standard. Thus a rollback of what is clearly a halchic extension
would seem appropriate.

“The sexual standards have served the Jewish people well over time and it is
a matter of character that brings Jews to follow the standards today. Sadly, I
engaged in pre-marital sex and it is clear to me that in retrospect--it was a
big mistake.”

This is your hypothesis and your experience.
It is impossible to turn your own experiences into an ironclad
rule. “Served well over time” – says
who? A historical approach to halacha
will show very clearly that these morays have changed considerably over time in
a variety of different directions.

But the fact is that the law DOES stop religious Jews from engaging in
pre-marital sex--it simply fails to prevent secular minded Jews.

Let’s take just a moment to remember that “religious” means, roughly,
infused with a spirit of belief and connection to God. It does not mean halachic. A good word for that in English would be
observant. And your use of secular is
exceedingly presumptuous. The thought
that Jewcy is a bunch of secular Jews is frankly ridiculous. There is a tendency in some observant circles
to be sloppy with terminology. Let’s not
do that here. You mean to say that
observant Jews understand that pre-marital sex is against halacha. But even that assumption would be
wrong. As evidenced by the Jews who do claim
to be bound by halacha and who claim – with help from textual sources – that pre-marital
sex is acceptable within halacha. Now
you and many others would say they are “wrong” but that’s nothing more than a
good faith Makhloket L’Shem Shamayim (dispute for the sake of heaven/God/Jewish
understanding)

“It is no wonder that a secular Jew would violate Shabbos. On the other
hand, It is a wonder why a serious religious Jew would violate a sexual law”

Your premise cannot be accepted for the reason stated above. There is no monolith when it comes to permissible
sexual contact pre-marriage. Once can
honestly observe halacha and engage in pre-marital sex. The fact that some people deny this
possibility does not matter except when those people control the levers of
power (like the shameful, scandalous, and intellectual lightweight Metzger) and
try to force their narrow view of halacha on an non-consenting mass of people

“You conclude that the mikvah was great--so why no specific remorse about
the subterfuge?”

Why show remorse when it is none of the mikva lady’s business who chooses to
immerse in a mikva? The idea that these
women should be the halacha police is ridiculous and the evolution of this
custom is anathema – a microcosm of everything that is wrong with the halachic
world today

“Sex is holy in the context of a marital relationship and not in any other
context. The "fact" that Jews
have a lot of pre-marital sex, a lot of Jews do not keep Shabbos, a lot of Jews
do not study Talmud/Torah-- is not relevant to the efficacy of the law in the
first place.”

Ahh…a very nice intellectual sleight of hand. Sex is holy in a marital context – says you. But not to everyone who believes in
halacha. And that is exactly why this is
issue is different than not observing Shabbat.
Many orthodox like making this connection but they ignore the fact that,
quite simply, there is no agreement on the nature of permissible pre-marital
sexual contact. If you look in the
sources, you may even find for yourself that the issue is not so cut and dried.
Your adamant insistence that halacha forbids
pre-marital sex does not make it so.





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