My father wasted hours throughout my childhood watching crap movies and rooting for a reliably losing New York Giants. He worked hard, though, and was certainly an adult. My mother, similarly, read crap mystery novels and watched soap operas. She was a great mother. You, I'm quite certain, probably spend hours upon hours over the course of your week doing something with your time which is simple, comforting, and less than challenging. We're all entitled to our diversions, and many video games frankly -- and it's clear you're simply not familiar with them -- are extraordinary pieces of work, approaching art, and are likely more rewarding than the many equivalent hobbies (such as, say, near religious following of a losing sports franchise) of those generations who didn't grow up with them.

Beyond that, even the most violent video game is preferable to real war. To suggest that to suggest otherwise is a sign of western civilization's downfall is a little much.

Honestly, you could also judge a society which prefers action films to Bergman, or sitcoms to Shakespeare, or religion to reason, but you'd seem an awful pretentious douche for doing so. This decadence isn't new, and many video games are a damned sight better, and more legitimately satisfying, than most Hollywood blockbusters.

I said there's nothing inherently wrong with video games, but an adult population who takes them as seriously as do children can't exactly be expected to act seriously on matters such as war and threat. And, frankly, if American arrested development ended at video games I'd be thrilled. The real problem is that adults now share enjoy every detail of American adolescence, most critically the "let's not judge others" culture, as exemplified in your comment. If you think that judging a culture that prefers religion to reason makes one a "pretentious douche," then there's no need for our critical faculties at all. We might as well play "legitimately satisfying" video games all day, safe in the knowledge that no one is any better or any worse, and progress and civil society are myth reserved for judgemental douches.

soon, we'll all be hooked onto a matrix and live our entire lives inside a virtual utopia.

For a taste, check out World of Warcraft

Baseball was extremely popular here, with adults, prior to, say,
World War II. We did ok, then. That's nothing more than grown-ups
playing a kids' game, after all.

As for the "let's not judge
others" culture which you decry in your semi-fascistic, perhaps
Objectivist, manner, I believe the non-judgmental approach is a fairly
healthy, and perhaps even practical one.

I personally believe
all religion to be horseshit, sure, but many of my favorite books,
pieces of music, paintings, and films were created by men and women of
enormous religious faith. I'd be an asshole to judge myself, or anyone,
as their better. These are men and women who have had an impact on not
just my life, but humanity in general, vastly surpassing what I'll --
with my so-called "enlightened" religious views and all -- will ever
accomplish. Likewise, a man or woman who collects comic books, or plays
Mario, or spends his or her Saturdays enjoying <i>Everybody Loves
Raymond</i> marathons, or spends upwards of 15 hours a day on the
internet masturbating to girlie pictures, may still, very possibly,
provide something to me, or to many, or to the culture in general, of
enormous worth. As a result, quite wisely, I reserve judgment.

The
culture is in peril, no doubt, but not for the reasons you state, but
more so because folks who think as you do are allowed to wield any
influence at all.

Perfect example. Baseball was adults playing a competitive sport, not very different from the Olympics. It became organized as a kids' sport many decades afterward. Little League came long after Negro Leagues and Major League Baseball, which makes sense: Kids aspired to do what adults did--not the other way around, as with video games today. And this picks up on another point I should have made earlier. This decadence IS relatively new. It started after WWII - but I'm going to save the details for an expanded version of the post.

So, judgement is now not only pretentious and douchey, but also semi-fascistic? You're sounding kind of judgemental there. I wasn't talking about down-grading admirable people because they're religious. I was speaking directly to what you said and have now sidestepped: you think it's pretentious and douchey to judge a culture because they value religion over reason. I can promise you that the artistry and technology that went into the creation of video games would never have been born from a static culture that valued revelation over science. And the ultimate danger of refusing to evaluate the merits of this or that culture is this: if you don't think your culture is any more valuable than any other, then you'd have no reason to defend it against those who'd destroy it. If that doesn't spell the downfall of civilization then nothing does.

 

Fine, you nailed my pink, quivering ass on the baseball/WWII thing. I should have watched the earlier installments of that damned Ken Buns documentary.

People under the age of 40 (actually, 45), in this country, grew up playing video games, same as most middle-aged men who get together with their buddies on the weekend to play a game of softball had grown up playing baseball. I believe it's a sign of our culture's maturing that we're not compelled to cease in doing things we enjoy -- when they're doing no one else any harm (acknowledging that in the abstract your argument is that they are) -- simply because some arbitrary standard handed down by someone likely envious of our having a good time to begin with says it's time to stop.

I agree that some things need to be taken seriously, and there's a time for work and a time for play, and all of that, and I agree our culture is decadent, but not simply because grown-ups enjoy spending their leisure time doing fun, frivolous things. You don't like video games, as perhaps I do, I don't like viewing hours upon hours of pornography --- as you do -- and that's fine. "Live and let live," is just good advice for sane living, not a naive invitation to the dreaded Jihadist boogiemen to come and blow up my mama.

Your facetious suggestion that we no longer judge others "safe in the knowledge that no one is any better or any worse," in this context does have fascist overtones. Who, precisely, will we trust to determine one culture and/or individual's objective relative value to another? The loudmouth bloggers?

"Who, precisely, will we trust to determine one culture and/or individual's objective relative value to another?"

 That's exactly it. An adult culture doesn't look to some parental arbiter. It's comfortable making that determination for itself.

 

"That's exactly it. An adult culture doesn't look to some parental
arbiter. It's comfortable making that determination for itself."

And
our culture has determined for itself that it digs the shit out of
video games. And that, alone, is not a bad a thing. And you DO sound
like a pretentious douche (in addition to your standard desperately
square and alarmist histrionics) for saying as much. My religion vs.
reason point was said a) to be amusing, and b) in the context of
judging individuals. 

Also, as a quick aside, I should
point out that there are great video games and there are crap video
games, same as anything else. 

That ad campaign bothers me,
as well, but for reasons very different than yours. Spike, IS a sign of
western civilzation's slow decline,  and the co-opting and mocking
of the counter-culture's ever more increasingly by the minute evident
failure is, while precisely what it deserves, disheartening all the
same. 

I've been so thoroughly confused back and forth throughout this debate. Abe, what the hell point are you trying to make? The first half of the article is about why video games aren't for pacifists - seemingly a slight on video games in general (at least, the shoot-y military-style ones that are so popular) - but then you seem to negate that whole point by asserting that there's nothing inherently wrong with video games. I guess I have nothing to do but disregard that whole lead-up, then.

And from there, you ask (what I assume to be?) the root of the argument: "Isn’t there something wrong with an adult culture with a video game habit period?"

I don't know what it is about video games that irks you so much. You seem to base your disrespect for them solely on their stereotyping as a mindless activity for children. First of all, the original electronic games weren't created out of, say, Atari's or Mattel's realization that there was an untapped market of kids looking to rot their minds with a new gadget. They were coded (and played) as a pastime by some very intelligent academic types at MIT. Heck, the original "game," Spacewar! on the PDP-12, was a bit of a social experience as, I believe, it could be networked to allow multiple computer geeks to duel it out with each other in real-time.

Anyway, if we're really so concerned about the origin of video games as a species that we need to bring up the MLB spawning the Little League as progeny - instead of the other way around - then that fact should dissuade you; Video games were created by adult geeks for adult geeks.

And if we're still concerned about the level of violence in video games (the fact that Spacewar! was, shockingly, a game about war in space probably should arise) please take a moment to realize that, as a medium, it would've been historically very difficult to create a non-violent video game from a design perspective. The whole point is to give the player an engaging challenge and, when you have only 2 colors and a couple hundred pixels, it's very difficult to create a memorable plot, engaging characters, and thoughtful moral development.

It doesn't have to be that way, however. Today we have the technology and, behold, video games - like film - is starting to become accepted as literature, if it's done well. As Fujimori said, there's good games and there's bad games, but there's good lit and bad lit too.

And I don't know where you come off making these wildly profound and unqualified statements about "adult culture" not needing a "parental arbiter." If you can really define what that even means, across the board, I'd be impressed. I'm sure you can provide examples of how it fits your point but, clearly, so can Akira Fujimori. So unless you can actually come up with a straight (or some sort of semi-legal) definition for what it means to require or not require a parental arbiter, I can't accept that argument as anything more than fluff.

Your concerns are well-placed, of course, in the case of XZIBIT. The dude's an idiot (or a child) in general. Whether he plays video games with his son (and, I apologize for tacking this on, but I take umbrage to your unilateral and unsourced declaration that "Father-son time is a beautiful thing, but you’re not supposed to share your 11-year old’s tastes in recreation.) is not the question.

Craig,

The first bit about violence in video games: video games do, in fact, reveal a reverence for blood and violence. And if the idea is to sublimate our bellicose nature into video games, we have a problem. Because, it turns, out wars are still necessary.

There's nothing wrong with video games: There isn't. There's something wrong with "Make Games not War." It's all about, as I said, priorities. 

"And from there, you ask (what I assume to be?) the root of the argument: "Isn’t there something wrong with an adult culture with a video game habit period?", "then that fact should dissuade you; Video games were created by adult geeks for adult geeks." For starters "creating" these games undoubtedly provided a much greater "adult" challenge then does playing them. Thus, marketers found they could most profitably sell the stuff to. . .kids. Most kids' things tend to be created by adults, do they not? Did infants develop diapers? But once again, I'll return to this: There is nothing wrong with adults playing video games. I do, however, think that there's something sad when you look around a train car of commuters and more men in suits pull out handheld games than newspapers or books. This is a clear indication of where we're heading and what cultural products we value.

"And I don't know where you come off making these wildly profound and unqualified statements about "adult culture" not needing a "parental arbiter." If you can really define what that even means, across the board, I'd be impressed." Akira asked, who's to determine what cultures are better than others. We're so far down the multiculti road that we don't realize such a question would have been unheard of fifty years ago. And in cultures other than our Western one it still is. 60 years ago the West had enough confidence in itself to say unapologetically that their way of life was best. Now, any public figure who said such a thing would be dragged before the cameras to apologize. To me, it's not so hard to see a direct line between the loss of that kind of confidence in our tradition and the fact that our tradition has shifted from Shakespeare to Bioshock (however ingeniously I'm sure that game was crafted).

Father-son time being beautiful: It depends on the father, I'll give you that.

 

"And if the idea is to sublimate our bellicose nature into video
games, we have a problem. Because, it turns, out wars are still
necessary."

So
the debate, as was obvious all along, comes down -- as it so often does
-- to the fact that you believe our being in Iraq is not only
justifiable, but necessary. Spike's marketing folks -- who I'll readily
accept are likely, as are most marketing folks, idiotic pieces of shit
-- are trying to appeal to the enormous portion of the population (some
of  whom, it's crucial that I point out, find time to read and
keep their opinions informed when not playing video games) who don't
share your opinion.

The Madison Ave. morons responsible earn no
points with me for the effort, and Spike TV continues to stand for much
that I dislike (although Bond marathons are always badass), but it is
infinitely preferable to make games over war. Play is sacred. Life is USELESS without it. Do you honestly believe we're the only culture who feels that way?  

The
wars we're in right now are only endangering the culture you deem
objectively superior to all -- the culture which allows us to shoot our
mouths off on this blog, which allows me to unwind while indulging in a
near masterpiece like Super Mario Galaxy, and allows you to engage in whatever you do, which others to whom you are simply not superior, no matter how much you wish it, would deem incredibly silly  -- and it is on this point that you and I disagree. 

Mr. Greenwald, I believe the comments thus far have made your point in spades.  Fine essay, and well reasoned responses.

Akira Fujimori, being in Iraq is justifiable and necessary.  And, thankfully, there are still among us a sufficient number of thinking adults with enough contextual awareness of history, good and evil, and the superiority of our unique western culture to make real war against those who would threaten it.  

"Our defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as a heritage of all men, in all lands, everywhere. Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors."  Abraham Lincoln

The same door behind which you numb your addled brain with "near masterpieces" of interactive digital fiction.
 
My greatest hope is that, having successfully taken the fight overseas, our brave adult soldiers return soon to take the fight to the cultural weaklings who populate our own soil.  I look forward to the next two decades as these returning heroes infiltrate the leadership ranks of our pitiful government and the cultural ranks of our degenerate society and subvert them with their courage and moral certainty.  Virtues, the new revolution?  Perhaps this thought scares the piss out of those 19 million SpongeBob-watching "adults".  Maybe.  I believe it goes some ways toward explaining that shrill whine emanating from the relativistic live-and-let-live left exemplified by your self-serving comments.

ewb,

Even those  who agree with you would say that you come off here
as nothing more than a pompous ass. You assume that the soldiers won't
also want to watch Spongebob? They're Americans, of course they will.
Many of them, for certain. 

Abe is merely misguided. You're actually self-righteous. 

Akira Fujimori,

Even those who agree with you would, if they were concerned with anything besides themselves, say that you come off as a sniveling self-centered gameboy who is threatened by morally confident adults because their serious decision making reminds you that you are too weak and afraid to defend yourself or your "live and let live" lifestyle against the real world's very real threats.

I don't play video games all that often, truth be toled. However if
I did I would be in no way less well informed than you, and I'm quite
certain no more self absorbed.

How is my belief that "live and
let live" is a sane model for living indicative of my being afraid of
anything. You're the one on the defensive. You're the one who feels our
current war is necessary to defend our culture. You're clearly the one
who is afraid. As far as I'm concerned you're the only one threatening
me right now, andI'm not the least bit reluctant to defend myself from you.

But...  

The
rest of the argument you're dragging me into is regarding the war and
whether or not the war is in any way defending us, or our culture. And
frankly, ewb, I don't have the time to engage your hysterical and
aggressive commenting style. Abe and I were exchanging comments in a
friendly fashion, whereas you're just coming off as an aggressive
prick. I've got better things to do with my time. 

Akira just said (to ewb):  "Abe and I were exchanging comments in a friendly fashion, whereas you're just coming off as an aggressive prick."

Akira previously said: (Abe sounds) "like a pretentious douche", "The culture is in peril" "because folks who think as (Abe does) are allowed to wield any influence at all", and (Abe likes) "viewing hours upon hours of pornography".

ewb, perhaps you should try not to be so "hysterical" and "aggressive" in your next comment , but rather "friendly" (in the self-absorbed, completely delusional Akira fashion) instead. 

 

 

Anonymous Jenny,

I'm friends with Abe. 

I'm not here to defend Mr. Greenwald, but I'm not sure that holding him out as a semi-fascist pretentious douche qualifies as a "friendly exchange". I also doubt whether you have better things to do, but what do I know.

Of course I'm afraid. I think fear is a sane and rational response for someone faced with large populations of motivated self-described haters of one's culture and self, who have sworn their blood and treasure to your destruction. They want to kill me, and you, too, though I doubt you believe it. This fear motivates me, if not to take up arms (my age prevents enlisting, and there are few jihadis running around here to shoot at), then to at least recognize the gravity of the situation and to support those who would defend me.

You, on the other hand, choose to play games. To live and let your threatening enemies live, because who's to say whose culture is better anyway, right? Bush lied, people died, ChenyBushitler rigged 9/11, they only hate us because we pissed them off, blahty blah. Who knows, maybe they won't kill you. You can explain to them that you've always been a live-and-let-live kind of guy, que cera cera, and they'll grant you a pass. Hell, maybe you'll just convert, that'd be easier. I mean what do you care anyway, right? As long as it gets them off your back and their guns out of your face so you can get back to Super Mario.

I may be hysterical and aggressive in my commenting, but you are a fool and a coward. And I will soon be done commenting.

ewb, you tell 'em!  You're sharp as a tack and funny to boot, and I look forward to reading your comments elsewhere. 

Akira, you're funny in your own way.  I didn't realize you and Abe were friends,  I just felt the need to defend him here since I attacked him for poor spelling once and have since enjoyed his writing so much that I feel guilty for making my only comment a negative one. 

This fear motivates me, if not to take up arms (my age prevents enlisting, and there are few jihadis running around here to shoot at)...

 My, how convenient!

"I didn't realize you and Abe were friends,  I just felt the need to
defend him here since I attacked him for poor spelling once and have
since enjoyed his writing so much that I feel guilty for making my only
comment a negative one. "

 Abe is a great writer, and a great mind, no doubt. I was
just screwing around -- with my tone, not with my opinions which were
sincere -- knowing that Abe can't bust my balls in kind in this
context.

"knowing that Abe can't bust my balls in kind in this context."

I certainly can. But I was engaging your opinion, not trying to get a rise out of you. 

"I certainly can. But I was engaging your opinion, not trying to get a rise out of you."

I'm
sorry for the delay in responding, but I was in the midst of converting
to Islam so that I may play my video games in peace when they take
over. 

I know you can respond in kind, I
however suspected you wouldn't, what with your name, face, and
reputation attached. And hey, maybe you have integrity as well. What do
I know? According to ewb I'm just an ill-informed, lay-about, knee-jerk
liberal cliche, as is evident in my enjoying and appeciating video
games and opposing the Iraq war. 

Fujimori - you're not a very good writer and it's kind of silly to try to match literary wits with Greenwald, who has such a sophisticated and compelling turn of phrase.  Whether you agree with him or not, Greenwald's a good, pithy writer.  I bet he doesn't play too many video games.  Your writing, on the other hand isn't very interesting - which may explain why you're not a paid blogger.  I think you have a future though, and maybe,  if you put aside your juvenille diversions - video games, Maxim magazine, energy drinks, and spent more time reading and editing you might improve your writing significantly.  Lots of good luck to you.

Vanessa,

From where is this coming? I'll ignore that you somehow know that I'm not a paid blogger. I'll also ignore your implication that being a paid blogger -- or writer of any kind -- translates to being a good writer.

I'm not going to bother to defend my admittedly hastily and sloppily typed up comments here. I'm not going to refute the activities with which you've profiled me as involving myself in lieu of reading things other than Maxim and editing my blog comments. Finally, I won't even bother to point out the comment where I say Abe is a great writer, without in any way, shape, or form comparing myself to him.  

Where did I claim to be a good and/or interesting writer? Where in my disagreeing with Abe did I claim to be a superior, or even remotely good, writer? Where was our debate even about the quality of my or his writing? Where did I say I even in any way wish to be a writer, much less a paid blogger?

I sincerely doubt you're a stranger, as I don't see what stranger could get this worked up over nothing, and comment on an entry buried four pages back. But, whatever your identity, you should work on your insults. There are plenty of things you could have said which would hurt my feelings, but savaging my comments on a random blog doesn't really rank high on that list.  

Sorry Fujimora- I apologize.  I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.  It was wrong of me to inject myself into a political discussion and add silly comments about writing.  I really have no personal stake at all.  Abe's picture is cute tho'.  In any event,  I hope you have a great 2008 and again I am sorry. Please ignore me.  :)